The Traditions & Evolution of Classical Pilates

What does it really mean to practice “classical” Pilates, and is that even the right word? In this thoughtful conversation, Blossom Leilani Crawford, owner and director of Bridge Pilates in Brooklyn, reflects on the classical Pilates traditions that shaped the method and how it continues to evolve today. Drawing from her close mentorship with Kathy Stanford Grant, Blossom shares intimate insights from Kathy’s post-class writings, the generosity she brought to teaching Pilates, and the deeper philosophy behind the work.

Joy and Blossom explore the unique perspectives of each Pilates Elder —from dancers to injury recovery to chronic illness—and how those experiences have shaped the Pilates lineage we know today. The Pilates Elders brought diverse backgrounds that enriched the method’s evolution and continue to influence traditional Pilates methods.

This episode is an excellent reminder that great Pilates instruction doesn’t come from complexity. By returning to the source, keeping the work simple, and understanding the “why” behind every movement, Pilates can remain both rooted in tradition and open to evolution.

This episode is powered by Balanced Body®.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hi, I'm Joy, and thank you for tuning in to Pilates Perspectives. Today we have Blossom Leilani Crawford, who is going to be talking with us about legacy and how the traditions of classical Pilates can evolve as we do. Before we get started, though, let's check in. So wherever you are, whether you're sitting in a chair, you're in your kitchen, you're out playing with the kids, actually let's just smile. And when you smile, notice how your cheekbones lift. There's a lightness or softness or a lift in your soft palate. You may even raise your eyebrows and your eyes might even open wider. But smiling is so important to our well-being, to our emotional state of mind. So I'd like to invite you today that when things get a little bit hectic or just feel a little bit out of control, just take a second, take a deep breath in and smile. Thank you for your time. Our guest today, Blossom Leilani Crawford, is the owner and director of Bridge Pilates in Brooklyn, New York, as well as Blossom Pilates, a virtual Pilates streaming site. A protege of Kathy Stanford Grant. She is known for her playful and inspiring teaching style. You can find Blossom at bridgepilates.com or blossompilates.com. Hello and welcome to Pilates Perspectives. I'm Joy and I'm here with Blossom Leilani Crawford. And today we will be talking about the traditions and evolutions of classical Pilates. So let's just start right there. All right. What are the traditions of classical Pilates? I know. And the evolution? I mean, how far back do we want to go? How far back do we want to go?

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Like, like, like the do we want to start when classical even became a thing?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

So let's start with like, okay, um uh these terms came about.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Let's let's go with like if I said to you classical Pilates, what does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Um uh off the cuff, I'd say it is it's the 90s and it was what Romana said it was, and codified a little bit through Peter Fiasca and his classical Pilates DVDs. I think that's what that's where it sort of started and at least started to solidify.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

All right. Then by like sort of today, uh, what do what would classical Pilates mean today, you think?

SPEAKER_01 2:35

Uh still mainly of a Romana lineage, is what in some circles, right? Yep. In other circles, it would be what Kathy did, what Ron did, what uh Corolla did. So it depends on your circle. So that's why I find it a fascinating term.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

It it immediately gets a little like confusing, right? Political, sure. Yes. And political, yes, yes, yes, yes. So if we were to look at classical and think of the first generation teachers, okay, would you feel comfortable with that? Oh, I mean, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Are you kidding me? I'm I'm always pro-Cathy. I was like, yeah, she was there. It's a little annoying, but it is a little annoying because I feel like for so long, the uh it was like, you know, God, I can't believe I've been around for long enough.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

I know. And you know what? And I landed and there was a whole bunch of snow, and all I keep thinking was when I was young, I had to walk two miles to school in the snow. That's right. Okay, we can be done being the old folks, but it is amazing too.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Well, it's just because you know, I started when I started, it was like uh I was getting certified by Romana. This term came about. Kathy was not in that, not there because it was sort of like, oh no, it's only Romana. It was really only Romana, right? Who was who and and what was funny was when I was getting trained, I would would literally watch people come in and be like, okay, so how is she doing the swan now?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Oh, interesting. Yes. How is she doing the swan now? Means that something has changed, therefore it can't be ding ding ding.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Joy wins a prize. It's true. But then, but then so okay, so you watch that happen, and then there was my sort of beloved teacher off on the side, and I was like, herself is good too. Right, and and also, yeah, right. Like, why isn't this as valid? And so then you watch that happen, and then then the sort of lawsuit happens, and then suddenly, um, you know, for many reasons, Romana is a away from the New York spotlight as much, and then other elders show up, and I was like, and then I get annoyed because like, oh, they're classical.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Now they're right, now they're classical. Uh-huh. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

So that's why I sort of sh don't really love the term just in general, because to me, it sort of has all those like other hooks in it from lots of different places.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah. Uh it's, it's, it, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't quite resonate. It doesn't quite work for me either. But I can't really even come up with another thought. Um, um Roberto Sereni from Italy, he said to me, Well, there's East Coast Pilates and West Coast Pilates. And I was like, Oh, that's oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. Is that true for them? Is that really true? Well, I I guess it's like East Coast swing, West Coast swing. There's East Coast pizza, West Coast pizza. Much preferred the East Coast pizza. Yes, yes, thank you. But but it's an it's an interesting concept, isn't it? Right. So it originally started pre pre-trademark lawsuit, or kind of around when it was all happening. That was that that 90s soupy period of time, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. Um, and and Romana really was the air apparent to the studio. That's how she was being billed by you know who. Uh-huh. Uh, and really the one of the the first codified teacher trainings, would you say? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Right? I mean, for for I mean, I I don't know if it was really the first. So it, but yeah, that's what I knew it as.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

And how she taught it was the expectation of how how it would be taught and passed on. Because that's what that's how she learned it from Uncle Joe.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

And that's Uncle Joe, she called him Uncle Joe. I I cannot call him that. I Kathy always called it Mr. Pilates. And one day a client of mine said, or a friend, she was like, You know, you always call him Mr. Pilates. I go, I do. I guess that's what Kathy called him. So, and also I didn't know him. My uncle? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't do that.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

I think by today's standards, Uncle might not be especially if you see the picture in the leaves. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. Um, okay, so Kathy, where's Kathy and all this for you? So you started with Romana. No, I started with Kathy.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

You started with Oh, I'm sorry, you don't know this. In 1993, that's the old-fashioned voice. Uh I go to NYU. I'm a first-year dancer there. Um, there's this thing where they go, Oh, you have to do floor bar class. I go, okay. I go to class. It's this old lady, by the way. Floor bar. I've never heard it. Good. She's listening, people. She's listening. Floor bar. Um, floor bar. Well, we can get to that. But um, and so I get there thinking I'm gonna be doing like Xena romance lying on the ground doing like bar on the floor. And then this lady comes in and she says she's actually teaching Pilates. And she was like, has anybody here done Pilates? And I had taken like one Pilates class, so I put my hand up and she was like, Where? I said, Hawaii. She literally, she did like one of those gestures, like, like that's not even a place. Like that's not even like like there's no Pilates in Hawaii. And so like she just kind of like dismissed me and was like, ah, like she just didn't even bother. So that was kind of funny.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

All right. So you you meet her, you're you you think you're going to be like, your dancer? Right, floor bark class. I love it. She's like, Yeah, that's not happening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

Um, she made us sit up straight for about 20 minutes, which is an excruciating amount of time if you're 17 and you have to sit up tall. And she and and she commanded a room in the sense where when she said sit up, you would sit up. And if she said, Don't look at me, you would just sit up and look straight ahead. And that's what we had to do for about 20 minutes. I think we maybe did one or two sit-ups, excruciatingly slow. And I think at one point she tried to, she either made us do it some, there was some sort of teaser involved. And that Biach, I'm gonna say it, was in a teaser the whole time talking to us. Teaser, and that's all any of us remember. Like, I remember going to the smoking lounge. There was even a smoking lounge. There was the days of the smoking lounge, yes. I mean, and you know, that's where I would go hang out with my friends. So I wasn't a young 17. I wasn't actually a smoking, I wasn't a smoker. Um, but and I was just holding them for a friend. No, I just hang out with them, be like, hi, and they were, we were all like, Did you see that lady do that? Like, did you like that's what I remember? It was just like, but uh the other thing that I really remember was just sort of that feeling of like she could really help me. I just sort of knew that I would get really strong and that I was trying to get really strong to dance and that I should be in the best shape I possibly could, and that she would could probably help me. That's what I remember.

SPEAKER_00 8:46

You know, I I don't want to have you compare and contrast in in in a way of like, oh, this is better or that was better. But it sounds like at this, like you had two distinctly different almost introductions to Pilates. One was Romana's introduction to Pilates. Yes. And one was Kathy's.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yeah. Well, for me, Kathy was really my whole world until I went to Romana's when I was when I told Kathy, I was like, hey, I'd like to get certified. She sent me to Romana. Uh-huh. I went and I was like, whoa, what's this? Oh, you don't have to warm up for 35 minutes, half an hour. Was that confusing for you? Oh, totally. But I also knew that Kathy was operated in a very special way. Like, you know, sometimes sessions could were at least 90 minutes. People were not having 90 minute sessions, right? And if I tell you what we paid, it'd be like, hmm, she just cares. She would just keep going. And then sometimes she'd go look at you and be like, You've been here a long time. I would like to leave, but you keep making me do things.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

She was generous with her time.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Oh. I mean, Joy, she was generous in so many ways, especially to me. To me. I mean, um, you know, she so when it got to a certain point after I was done being a student, she we never really exchanged money. How lovely, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Ever.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Lovely. I did pay her once. I paid her for a 10 pack, which I thought was I was buying, which by the way, she never asked for more money again. And later, when I thought that it had like emptied out this one account I had, I still had a couple hundred bucks in there. And I was like, oh, she never cashed the check.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

She never cashed the check.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

So yeah, so yeah, she was generous. But you know, it was a it was an exchange. Uh-huh. Right? It was a definitely an exchange. And I feel like for a long time, like there were times when I was definitely benefiting more, and then maybe times where she was benefiting more. So but that's but I think you blossomed beyond that. Blossom. Thank you, thank you. But it was a real apprenticeship that doesn't exist anymore. Which yeah, which I was lucky. What what what's the what's some of the benefits of the apprenticeship model? Oh, um, for me, it's in my DNA. Like, um I don't often I maybe look at notes to be like, oh yeah, that one. And then then I like I kind of need like the next trigger, like, okay, oh, we're gonna do all the heads. And I know it's like this head, this head, that like I know those, right? And and also I for me, it was watching you get to watch someone over time and you learn, like, oh, how is she dealing with that? Oh, how's she dealing with that? Oh, she doesn't do that anymore. Listen to those words she's saying. So I think there's something about watching something age and watching her shift over time. And then you sort of go, you can kind of model yourself after that. Like, oh, she doesn't always like I saw, oh, she was trying that on for a bit. And then, like, for a while there, you you've heard of Kathy's green room. Yes, yes, there she has the green room. There, for a while there, there was a yellow and green and orange room. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Is it like stop, go? No, not at all. No, I don't know where the hell the colors came from, but she was giving like the obliques were like different colors, and the rectus was another color, and the transverse was the green. But then, yeah, so but so for a while there I saw her as I was like, Oh, she was just she was testing out material, like you know, like a comic almost. Like, oh yeah, okay, oh yeah, but this is the one I really does this work, does this imagery work? Does this for me it was modeling? I got to sort of see how she worked through her material. That was one thing that I really loved about sort of my old-fashioned apprenticeship. And um, I mean, I really had a person looking out for me. She, she, she taught me in like so many ways. Like how to be uh, like uh, okay. Um she said, you know, so and so, I found out that so-and-so is opening a studio. I wish I heard from it from her as opposed to from the friend.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

So when I went to open my own studio, when I thought about it, like when I looked at a space, I went right to the person I worked for, said, Hey, I looked at a space today. I'm thinking about doing this. Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

So she was like a deliberate teacher, like that permeated all aspects of uh society.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Actually, I think for people that she loved. I mean, that's so yeah, so she was she was in there. So yeah, so that's why I feel like she's a part of my DNA as opposed to trying to like uh create these different models in your head. Like she really was just I mean, it it was a long time.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

So, how is that imprinted on you? Because now, you know, there's really not a lot of apprentice models, right? Students will stick to you and they will follow you. How has that um impacted how you show up as a as a teacher?

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Um that's a good question. Well what I do know is I'm not Kathy. And um, I'm not, I wish I could say I tried, but you can't try to be her. Like she was just too she like she was just such a whole person. Like I was just like, I can't do that. Yeah. So that's one thing is that I I and she even that was like one of the things, like don't be me. You don't have to be her. Right. It was such a gift, right? Yeah, you don't. Oh yeah, because I so wanted to be her. I I wanted to be, I wanted to be her. And and so once she she observed me teach a class and and she didn't say anything, which is you know also very polite of her. But then when we went upstairs, she said, Okay, so and then she kind of talked to me. She goes, You like to stretch, don't you? I was like, Yes, I love to stretch. And then she said, and that one exercise, you weren't ready to teach that, were you? I said, No, I really wasn't. And she said, Honey, you have to find your own words. You can't you can't teach like me. Wow. So I think that was twofold. You need to know it in there, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Because if you didn't know it, you were parroting what she told you. Yes. Well, I think that's really powerful. And I think that's actually what's happening in training. I was just gonna say, I think that's really powerful. I mean, listen, new students, they I think the parroting might be part of that beginning. It is that real, like setting them out of the nest to fly. They have to find their own voice.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

I mean, yeah, it's like what's going on with me and my kid. It's like, okay, here we go. Hopefully, like, hopefully, I've done it. Yeah, so that that is so that I think would be my answer. Is I feel like she in the for me as an apprentice, I think I really learned like, find your own words, blossom, find what this means to you. Ah, like, you know, you can use Kathy as like a place to start from, but what is how does this like what do how do I want to describe it? So, like sometimes when she would teach, I go, Well, what if you try this? She goes, Well, next time you say that in class.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

You know, I love like there's just was a wisdom to her, wasn't there? Like she she knew how to like um be the teacher in the room, but still give the space for others to stretch. Yes. And it was terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Was it terrifying? Oh, I mean, like, you know, as much as I love Kathy, and I'm if she were sitting right here, I'd be like, you know, you make people cry. Like she would make people cry on the regular, like on the like, and like grown ass people, famous. I would have been in tears, yeah. And it was just a thing. And if it was your day that she was gonna go in on you, it was your day. And you're just like, okay, hold on. Fantastic. So yeah. So that's what, but she had a certain authority that was, you know, a little frightening at times.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

Well, but then it was also part of that generation, wasn't it? Yes. I mean, Romana had an authority, Ron had an authority. Yes, Eve, very different, but still also very much a presence, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:09

I think that was, yeah, that's right. It was a generational thing. And also it was of the time where, like, if you studied with me, blossom, you're not also studying with this person, this person, and this person, right? It was a very different Pilates world was also so much smaller.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

It was very small at the time, yeah. And it was, it was kind of confusing because um they were all so similar and yet not um uh that that it it broke off into these groups who primarily studied from one over another. But you've had you've had access to many. I know.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Well, at some point I realized that everyone was coming to New York to do Pilates, and I was like, you know what? I live in a Pilates Mecca. Duh. Well, East Coast Pilates. Okay, I live in East Coast Pilates Mecca. No, but I realized that I was like, oh yeah, there's l other people. Well, first I had to sort of, after Kathy passed away, I had to sort of let myself be without her. Which must have been terribly hard. I just missed her. I missed her as a friend. I missed her as a, you know, there's something when when the world seems like it's falling apart where you can call the person who's just like, oh honey, it's gonna be fine, right? Like yeah, I so I missed her. And then there was that whole not having her around as a sort of a teach as a teacher mentor anymore. And so that was but that was also good for me. I was I was it was kind of nice in some way to because in my head, she was always in the room. Uh so like sort of even like opening my own studio and being teaching by myself without her there, that was a good thing too, right? But I did miss her. And then, and then at a certain point, it was I was ready to hear another voice, and that's when I started trying out other things.

SPEAKER_00 17:43

Oh, that's fantastic. So we do have someone who does research on our behalf. Um, and she found a quote from you. Um, where basically you're saying the way to learn the method is through the legacy. Well, for me, it's always been that connection. But what is the legacy? Oh, because you've had so much experience to multiple pieces or or um uh interpret. I'm not gonna say interpretations, because I don't think they were interpretations of the legacy, but it's almost like many people had different experiences with Mr. Pilates at different times.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

And also at different points in his life.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yes. And this is what I'm talking about. So looking at each teacher and being, okay, so like, okay, Romana, she was a young, able-bodied dancer when she went to Mr. Pilates. That totally um correlates with the kind of Pilates, the way she teaches Pilates and the meth, the way the way she sort of pushed the method forward. Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Her experience of the method and remembrance of it. Yes, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

Uh same with like um Kathy, like Kathy was an injured woman going to see Mr. Pilates. So she wasn't gonna just go right to the hundred. Like that was she she couldn't do that. So that's why I'm so to me, what I'm looking for when I say lineages or legacy, I'm looking to sort of see how did each of those people uh sort of synthesize this, these movements and sort of come up with their own thing. Right. That's what I realized.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Correct. A completely different experience of correct.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

So that's so, but that's always been because I that is also my experience. Like I came in as a certain of at of a certain at a certain era, so and I got to sort of see these things firsthand. So that's why that's the connection of it for me. But I don't know what I don't know what those kids are doing now. Meaning, I don't, I wish I could answer that question for them because people ask me all the time, where should I go to get certified? And I'm at a loss. I don't really know what to tell people. I mean, I do know what to, but but it's not it used it used to be like, well, you you know, you oh, so you live here, you this would be a good place to go. Right. Here's your here's your personal that anymore. I no, no, no, I sort of go. It's not do you have a teacher that you like? Are you going to move around the country? Are you gonna move around the world? Uh is your you do you need your certification to be known internationally or just you know in your little town? Like what what's the and but I mean What do you need this to be for you? Correct. But I what I really tell people is find someone who's teaching, first of all, that cares about you. And very important that you get that you want to work with because it's a relationship. It's a relationship in my mind, no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

So it's a certainly the relationship piece, and the and that comes through just in how you speak of both Romana and Kathy. But but as as we sort of move beyond sort of the elders into the space we are now, what are the things that are important to keep on this Pilates journey? Because it's evolving, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Yeah. Well, so I think the big question that I always ask myself, or even tell people to sort of like why? It's like, uh I don't kind of care what you're doing on that reform, whatever, but tell me why you're doing it. Yeah. What's the purpose that you're sold? What is what what is what is this, what is that movement thing doing for that person, the client? Like is it is that really the best way to do that? Like that's what that's so um that's like so. I think I always say the context, like right. What's the value add? Yes. Yeah, what's what's the what's the what's the reason for this? Um it comes a little bit from um two things. So, Kathy, like the scariest thing Kathy would say to you as she walked by, because you know, you did semi-privates. She'd walk by and kind of look down at you and go, what's that? Oh, what's that? And you just kind of be like, um, well, I I was thinking about, I was trying to do my head list, but this really hurts, so I'm doing it this way. And she'd be like, and if she was okay with it, she'd be like, okay, you know, maybe add this. Or she'd go, No, and then give you something different. But if you the worst thing you could say is, I don't know. Oh, really? If you had no idea what you were doing, she'd be like, Yeah, that's the worst thing. And that's to me, sort of what I'm kind of talking about. It like, and like even when I'm working with like I have this lovely uh PT. Friend, uh, Dr. Marshall Haggins that I work with a lot. And when we're trying to problem solve, he's the question he always asks me is, okay, what is what are we trying to do here? What it what what are you trying to get this person to do? Right. So what are the choices you're going to make here? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so to me, that's really the question that I go back to of just like, why are we, what, what's the purpose of doing it this way?

SPEAKER_00 22:21

So versus this way. So now today, um uh Pilates has sort of circle come full circle to groups and semi and semi-privates, right? Very, I mean, in many ways, very almost similar, more similar to the beginnings. Yes. Um but what if someone says, you know, I I I'm I'm just here to teach a workout?

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Oh, then go ahead. I mean, uh honestly, I'm I'm a close, I'm also into that too, because I remember once I was trying to do something and I was trying to reinvent the wheel, and one day I was kind of tired with this client. And I just went, you know what? I'm gonna just go through here it is, footwork, hundreds. You know, I just went down the line and I was like, wow, those are all the things that I need to do anyway. So yeah, because guess what? That works too.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Well, but that could have a purpose too, right? Definitely. Because so much of your why comes out in and ultimately, uh, because I I remember those days too, you know, client number, whatever would come walking in your door and you're like, okay, we're just yeah, we're just gonna do this thing. Yeah. And inevitably something shows up.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

You're like, there it is. And there it is, right? Something I can work with. Okay, good. Let's do the a few other things that address that thing. Next.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

And and you can find I wouldn't want to say fine-tune it, but you can scale that into a class where where you're you're offering your whys and people are everybody in the room is taking what they can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. How do you feel about um the the classes that are coming in? Uh big group classes. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

I mean, I wonder how they do it. I mean, it must be, I think, I think it must be fun. I like that people are doing Pilates. I think that if you are a true Pilates lover, you will do that and you'll do the private stuff. I never think of it as threatening business-wise.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

So it's not this or that, it's this and. I in my mind, yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

I think so. I think so. So I look at it, I think of it as like, great, more advertising for Pilates. I just hope it's good Pilates. And so that's always my proponent. Like, let's get some, you know, thoughtful Pilates out there.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Yes. My my my big concern is uh the the best word of mouth is when someone says, Oh, I do Pilates. So As opposed to? As opposed to, you know, if if people are passing through real fast, oh got it. I did Pilates, that's true. Right, right? I I want to keep people saying, Oh, I do Pilates. I do Pilates, yeah. Today's episode is sponsored by Balanced Body. Pilates is a complete ecosystem, equipment, education, and community. And Balanced Body connects all the parts. We designed and build innovative equipment to meet the needs of today's Pilates enthusiasts. Our training programs support teachers and understanding why quality of movement matters and how to create and deliver engaging, effective classes. Celebrating our 50 years in all things Pilates, Balanced Body is your resource for equipment, education, and inspiration at Pilates.com. Um, so what do you think? What are the ways we can evolve the method without losing the links to where we came from?

SPEAKER_01 25:34

I struggle with that because part of me, I don't know if people care anymore about where anything came from or what's like like I feel I I don't know if these kids, if these kids these days, I don't know if they care. You don't know if they care.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

I don't know if they care. I don't know. There's like ancestry.com. People seem to like their lineage.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Yeah, but but I guess, but do they uh Do they care about the method? Do they want like some older person to be like, that's not how I mean, so I guess what I'm trying to say is that's a part of it, is not to go in there being like, that's not the right way. Uh-huh. That's not the right way to do it. You know, you've uh like oh, I taught a workshop this past weekend and I was so happy because I had all kinds of people there. I had all these outliers like from lots of different places. And that's my favorite, is when I get because I don't want to feed just one demographic to be, I want, I want all, I want little bit, I want all the people who are like, okay, this isn't quite working. I'm looking for something different. Those are the people I want. Like that would be that's fun for me. But I just I I don't know how much they care about the people who came before them. I mean, I care deeply. Uh to me, Kathy was so wise, and any nugget that you can take is really wonderful. But I don't know if the new kids care.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

That's but I I I hear exactly what you're saying. Um, but what I I do see is we see a lot of students who maybe have you know uh a small amount of information and then they go out and they start teaching, and then they realize, oh, I have a small amount of information. Yes, right? And then they cycle back. And once they it's almost like once they have a taste of it and they cycle back. Then it gets exciting. The original work gets exciting again.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

That's correct. And that's those are the people that I usually get. Yeah. Like, okay, yeah, yeah. So what's to do is what you're asking me, Art, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Well, I guess, I guess um we are getting to a point where we're straying farther and farther from the original work. Yeah. How do we keep that as the foundation of all the experimentation and evolution that's coming?

SPEAKER_01 27:39

I think that's I mean, it's present. For me, I I challenge myself. So every now and again, like I go, okay, uh Math class this week, we're gonna do a little bit of warm-up, but after that, I'm just gonna go down the line. Yeah. Right. So I think every now and you play, you uh for me, it's playing. It's like, okay, we're gonna do this, and I go, okay, we're gonna just do that, like we're gonna do this classical block, and that's so I I'm I sort of go back and forth. I kind of go really far away and then I bring it back. And I go really far. I'm like, okay, but then this is the start. Like we're just doing footwork.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Well, it's it I mean, even just based on what you're saying to me, it sounds like the the roots of all of your original experiences are there, even if you stray far away. Yeah, right. That's always what I'm deriving from. That's always what you're deriving from. So I guess then the big question is how do we instill the roots, right? It doesn't have to be, and this person lived from in this time to that time. And they did this thing, and and then that person did that thing. Right. And it it's it's it's the richness of those, of all of those sort of deep and also of the practice of it.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Like you know, practice of it. I went when I went to Ramana, it was I so I so loved that I went there and it was just like I couldn't do any of my Kathy stuff because I got to set figure out how to do all my things within just that very traditional order. I was like, oh, look, I can still do all my stuff.

SPEAKER_00 28:57

And it was great, wasn't it? It was great. And then Kathy, it was great, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

So I mean, I guess as we evolve, it can be great.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

It can. I think you just have to. For me, it's always like keep an open mind, try new things, and maybe circle back.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

And circle back, give it right. Yeah, scoop up a little bit of the intent.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

If you feel like you're getting lost, go back to okay, let's just let me just do this basic series. Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:21

And if you're getting lost, right? Right. Head lifts.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Yes. How to breathe. How do you lift your head off the ground? How do you bring your knees into your chest? Those are the basics. You want to talk about functional.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

That was functional before it was like, you know. Ooh, functional. Yeah. Ooh, baby. So we talked a little bit about the apprenticeship model. Um how do we address how do we address also the diversity of education in the landscape right now? You're talking about the people of color? What are you talking about? Diversity. I was talking about diversity of style of practice, but let's let's go there. Um you, by the way, have entered into a world that not many people of color have entered into back in that.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

I'm just so thrilled you consider me a person of color. Thank you. No, I'm not kidding. It's been very interesting being uh the assistant closely tied to Kathy Grant, who was a black woman. And to have people not really acknowledge the fact that I am not a white woman either.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

I know. You know, I think I think that acknowledgement generally has been a very hard thing in society.

SPEAKER_02 30:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

It's it's almost like again, that or word instead of end. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's so it's it's that's why I'm just like, oh great. She's get great.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

We're gonna talk about color.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

Awesome. Let's talk about I mean I was talking about diversity of teaching, but I let's talk about this. This is a big it's big. It's a big topic. And we we definitely we definitely hit um just what is it? Was it pre-COVID or during COVID? A period of reckoning. And and now we're coming out on this other side that I don't even know what it is, but but but Pilates is it it's oh gosh, for bodies, it's not, it's you've really gotta understand that it's not perfect for all bodies. No. Um, so it's something knowing your why becomes really important. And as a woman of color, what were your experiences, which I know were very different from Kathy's experiences, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Like, I know I'm I am not a black woman. I will never know what that like I remember like acknowledging that with Kathy. And you know, she taught me about those things too. Like when I accidentally called that guy in the elevator. Well, he was like, What's up, girl? And I said, Nothing, boy. And she was like, Never call a black man boy. I was like, but he called me girl. She was like, never call a black man boy.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

I was like, got it.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

You know, those were things she taught me, but you know, I know that I will never understand that on the visceral level that she did. But I, yeah, that's right. I am not a white person either. And and it was just been very interesting to sort of see that somewhat glossed over because I'm fair, I'm sort of a fairer Asian. And um, like, so it's been because I do have moments where I'm like, uh, yeah, I'm a person of color too. I may not be black, but I am brown. I'm not yellow. Like, I don't know if you know that sort of distinction in Asian cultures. It's like they're the sort of yellow or Asian, like what way with like high Asian, so to speak. And is uh Ali Wong called jungle Asian? I'm a jungle Asian. Do you know what that means? No, yeah, Filipino, like all the sort of like low, like south, more south. More south, huh? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Was that isolating for you? Well, I grew up in Hawaii. So Hawaii was a big so let's talk about the Hawaii. The Hawaii experience of that is we were on the inn. Oh. But I like counterculture. So who were my friends? The weird thespians, the white thespians. So like all of my buddies were like, you know, Watske, Mian, Twilight, like those were my buddies. Like they did theater, and like those were my friends. And I was like this weird, like, like, and my brother would be mad at me, he'd be like, Why are you hanging out with those people?

SPEAKER_00 33:27

So you come from Hawaii and then to dance, is that how you end up being here? Yeah, to NYU, yep. And and then that that must have been a little eye-opening.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

It was. I was sort of like, oh, and all, but you know, still like, why must be and and what what what was your style of dance? Oh, well, I loved modern dance, but I still I loved modern dance, but ironically, I school I sort of did better in ballet classes. Oh, interesting. Yeah, well, because I had more training in ballet, but I loved performing modern and because it was just like, you know, counterculture. Nice. Yeah, yeah. And it was weird, it was different, and it was in the 90s, so there was talking and you know, scrambling on the floor. I was like, this is fun. This is weird. So that was sort of what I loved. And then I came to New York and it was just I really saw myself from the outside. I was like, oh, I am different, but I'm like, so like, yes, I'm Asian, but I'm not also a little Asian person. I'm a tall Asian person.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

So well, I you know, I was going to ask you, did you feel did you feel isolated because of your height? I mean, ballet. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah, yeah, there's no one gonna lift me. I right, luckily it was the 90s, so I was lifting people, right? I was strong, I got strong enough with Kathy that I was like, I was the one lifting and twirling people. Oh, interesting. Yeah, and also I prefer like that. That's a role I like. I'm like, yeah, give me a job, flip you upside down, great. Yeah, so that's what I liked. But yeah, I wasn't gonna be like, no one, there was no twirling of someone holding me. Like no one was gonna have me doing pirouettes. Yeah. Right. So it was it was uh definitely an interesting time, but I sort of I just loved it. Like early 90s, New York, coming here for the like was wonderful. But then then going into the Pilates world, I had sort of like, if I may say so, Kathy, I loved her, but she was a little bit of a body elitist when it came to her, the person she picked as her assistant. Oh, uh-huh. I mean, there's a reason she I mean, so yes, I was there as a very committed student, but she liked the way I looked. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so she chose you to be her body. Part of it, yeah, yeah, part of that. But also, I mean, that's just part of it. Cause also I were like, I will I showed up every Monday through you looked the part, but you also showed up. Correct, correct. So it has been very and but then you know, watching her going like, where are my people at like at PMA conferences, she'd be she'd look for the black people. Oh she'd be like, Oh, there's nope, that's Lolita. Okay, oh, there's a black person. Like, that's how it would go. Oh, interesting. But she did like how it's getting a little more diverse every time. And so that part was great. But what I've been enjoying is going to Asia now. Like, so when I taught in Thailand a few years ago, I sort of I said to my lovely hostess Balm, who you know. I love she was like, Yeah, they all think you look Thai. I go, I do look Thai. She goes, Yeah. And she goes, you know, it's just the first time we've ever had anyone that looked like us.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

And I was like, oh, that was a moment. And it's powerful. Yeah. It's powerful. Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna, I can't believe I'm about to share this into the microphone, but I was walking past an athletic store. Oh, yeah. And they they had one of the models outside that wasn't like teeny tiny itty bitty. And I was like, oh, great. That's what that would look like on me, right? Yeah, they're finally doing that in in the in the online as well. It's it's powerful to see yourself represented.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

It really, I mean, it's it's like even like with Bridgerton, where they have like like, oh, I love that. I'm like, oh I know. It's great. I mean, I'm so happy that that exists for someone like my daughter, like who she can sort of like see Asians in different places. So that's been, I would say that's sort of that like so. I've actually it's funny, I've really been enjoying traveling to Asia and and and sort of being like, look, yeah, look, I I I sort of look like you. I'm not white enough for some of them. I'm not I'm not because you know, a lot of there's certain Asian cultures that don't like, don't want you to be too brown.

SPEAKER_00 37:15

It's it's we put those impositions on ourselves. Yes. How so then, okay, so then let's talk about how do we truly become we don't just say the words, how do we truly become welcoming spaces?

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Uh, I mean, I think you give attention to those people who are look like other, because I think that's what happens is that the the the people who are sort of the others look feel invisible. Pay attention to them, give them a cue, look at them, talk to them after class. I mean, it's not rocket science. Yeah, yeah. It's and I always say acknowledge. Yeah, like like, oh wait, I don't uh oh, that's different. Yeah. My first time really encountering this issue is um, so I have a dear friend, Michelle Yard, she danced for Mark Morris for years, and she we went to and taught at a conference in Santa Fe. She sort of assisted me and she was doing a rollback, right? And she's got a little bit of a booty. And um, she did her thing, by the way. Like literally was on at the Met dancing like the week before. And the woman, someone at the conference said, Oh, um, is she supposed to tuck her pelvis under because she's not really doing that? And I said, Okay, let's take a look at her body. She's got a butt, she has a very small, narrow waist. It's going to look different on her than it's going to on the other bodies. Right. So acknowledge those. But what if you're but and and if I wish what I wish I said to her is you need to train your eye for this as well.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

That's it. And so, and look for like, okay, oh yeah, that's you tucking under, it's gonna look different on that body. It's gonna look different on that body. It's gonna look different on that body. Not wrong, not better, just different.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

And it's gonna feel different too.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

The experience is going to be different.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yes, but if you're not welcoming, they will not come back.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Well, if you're not welcoming, right? If you don't talk uh and and often those differences disappear when you start seeing again, I think what you said is beautiful. Just you know, see, right? See these, see these bodies, see these individuals be open, right? Yeah, it looks different. Why does it look different? Right, not judge, not judgy. Yes, but curious. Yes, that's right. Like, oh, that's right. Okay, she's curling. Oh, that's right. Her waistline is this high up, and he's gotta yeah, right. And then that opens the door. That opens the door. That's that's that's great. Um, so that transition for you, um, being the dancer and the assistant to being the teacher. Yeah. What was that like for you?

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Um, several things happened all the same. I had opened my studio, um, and I started, so Kathy was still alive when I opened my studio, and I started just, you know, having to just do my thing, which it's funny because I wanted to teach at NYU and there was Kathy didn't let that happen, or there was that wasn't going to be a thing. And I realized, like, okay, if you want to have children and do all these things, it was time to sort of do that. So I I did it. And so that I think that was one thing was just sort of being in a room by myself and just teaching, like doing the work over and over again. Like that's I think the transition that the first sort of transition I made.

SPEAKER_00 40:14

But was it like teaching the lay population and not teaching a room of dancers at NYU?

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Oh, I love it. Yeah, I love it because um you learn so much. So I taught at Mark Morris, even though it was at the dance uh dance center, I got the regular people, uh, which I loved. I was also sometimes like, oh, that person, when I say elbow, she gives me her foot. Like, you know, right, but it's such a great lab. Like, I love big group classes like that with Pete Lay folk because it's such a great place to be like, okay, here's the cue. This is me like thinking, here's the cue. How many people are gonna get it? Oh, nope, I guess you're right. That is what I said, but that's not at all what I want. That's not right, right. Right. So I actually love that. I miss it. I so it challenges you to really it's a way for you to be like, how are these words being interpreted by 17 different people? Like with dance experience and without dance experience? What does this look like? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Um it it's always really interesting, especially when you try to um, you know, talk about like things like lifting your head. Yeah. Right? Complete like it's it's a very it's experienced differently by by it could be 20 people in the room.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:21

So so what are you going to offer that's going to land in a way?

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Oh, and where does that come from? I tell people like, try to visualize what you're what you're trying to get them to do. And what's the simplest way you can say it? And you'll try different things on, and you'll walk you'll well, as you observe people, you know, maybe other people teach you, go, oh, that's a good way to say live turn.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Do you know? I think what you just said is so powerful.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

What?

SPEAKER_00 41:46

New students are always trying to find like, and they and they want to show everything they know. And they want to be like, well, your head is gonna, and it's this ligament and it's that thing, and you've got to flare your left nostril. Well, that I mean, I definitely did that. Like, so when I first read it, we all did it.

SPEAKER_01 42:00

I know. We made it so complicated. I know, and really, like, in fact, I just like look for your toes. Yes, find the simplest way to and Kathy Victor about that too. Like, okay, like when she'd say reach for something, and I do something like uh like this. And go, is that how you reach? I go, Oh, yeah, that's nice. She goes, reach for it. I'm like, okay. She goes, that's what I want. Uh-huh. So that like just simple like reach. For those of you who are listening, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

Her first reach was very ballerina. Thank you. Many thousands of dollars. And her second one was looking for a glass of cabin.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

That's exactly. And that's because Kathy would say, like, reach for a glass on the top shelf. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. And so we do make it very complicated. But yeah, that is like, what's the simplest way?

SPEAKER_00 42:39

Yeah. What a great, what a what a great offering for new teachers. Find the simplest way. Right. And and give it direction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Try and look, listen, see what other people are doing. But I find the simplest way is like less words if possible. Less word. If possible. And then I mean, like I said, we were all guilty of like it.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

So so talking about, you know, classical work, you know, the classical work is very hard.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

And which is so uh it always cracks me up when people are like, oh, I I want I want Pilates to be a workout. I'm like, oh well, all right, how about we just here we go? One, two, three, four, five. We're going, we're just gonna go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah. Um, it it's really it can be really challenging. The equipment and really working with the equipment is can, you know, is is its own challenge. Yes. It's very complex. Yes. Um, it takes a long time for somebody really off the street to be able to do that. Yes, definitely. So when we talk about classical and the method and staying, trying to find the why. Um what's your recommendation for for how to bring the new client into the studio? Into the method. Now they'll come into the studio. So they've into the they're in the studio, and how do we keep them going? How do we keep them going and how do we really pull them closer and closer?

SPEAKER_01 44:00

Tough for me, it's you always find that thing that they the the that exercise or that moment where it's hard for them. You go, okay, let's work on this for the next few weeks. And then, you know, I'll sort of do all these different iterations of working on, say, the headlift. And I'll do it in the hundred, I'll do it, you know, in a on the bear, like I'll do it in lots of different places. And then you sort of put the marker down, and then a few months later you check back and go, look, that's actually easier for you now.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

They go, Oh yeah. Right. It's a different way to uh to talk about their progress.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Correct. You but I think giving markers is good and being like, okay, we're working on this teaser on the box, on the long box. Let's work on that this season, quarter. That's just what I do naturally because I think, I mean, I'm gonna say it, I'm a natural salesperson at sometimes. Yeah. But but also it gives also gives me some things like, okay, that's what we're working on. We're working on this. And I can sort of chart my client's progress that way.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Gosh, late 90s, I was in the city learning, but I would go home to the suburbs to teach. Oh, interesting. Uh huh. So, so where your school and your learning and the people around you, you you know, was was stayed in this sort of soupy mix of like New York City. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and and clients would come in in the early days and say, I hear this pilot stuff gives you flat abs, right? And you'd be like, Welcome. Yeah.

unknown 45:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Pilates. I'm gonna do the pilots. Um that's back in the day. Now today it's really funny. Um, you know, now everybody knows Pilates that that uh They don't know how to pronounce it, you mean they know how to pronounce it. If I go on a plane, I uh uh everybody around me is talking about Pilates. It's the funniest, interesting, funniest thing. Um they're like, what do you do? I'm like, um I would say, oh, I do this Pilates thing, and everybody's like Pilates, Pilates, Pilates. It's it's very funny. Anyway, um, but now everybody knows what Pilates is. But I remember back then thinking to myself, Do they though? I mean, I think they know that it exists. They know that it exists. And I think that's the heart of this conversation right now, right? Like, do they know what Pilates is and how do you take that client on that journey to explore it? I think one of your answers, and I'm repeating it because I think it's worth um all the Pilates instructors to hear that is is you may take one element of like they maybe they're not going through the whole repertoire in a in a workout, but you may take one element, teaser on the box, yeah, and you may make that the theme, and then you're working and enriching that for a period of time. Yes, right? Yeah. Um, and that's one lovely way to keep the Pilates in there. Yes. Right. And then they see and feel and experience the challenges and also feel progress.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

And then we can find them. I'm sure, by the way, there will always be something else. Like it's hard.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Yeah. Well, well, that's the beauty of what we do, right? You can always you can always find the next layer of it.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

But I always used to think to that client who would come in and say, I hear this pilot stuff gives you flat abs. I'm like, okay, come on in.

SPEAKER_02 46:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Let me give you a little of what you think that you want, yes, but infuse it with what you actually need.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you. I'm with you. I know. It's like, okay. And then over time they come for what they need. Yeah. Well, because what they what happens is they come in and they know they feel better. They don't maybe don't quite know that they think, oh, I exercise, but it's more than just ads, is what they realize. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Well, I think that's powerful for the new instructor who right away is going into teaching classes. Because I think there's a lot of pressure. Maybe it's scripted in the beginning, which is totally fine because you need to first find your way. Um, but the scripts are always about what we think they want. And the real, the, the, the, the real challenge is to infuse what they need.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Right. Like you think you're like, yes, you'll get some abs, but you also need to work on that posture. Yeah. Like that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. That is true.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

So, how do we drizzle, how do we see that in the room and drizzle that in? And I think that's the like the quintessential like spark of teaching.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

How do we it's the why?

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Yeah, it is. It's like what are we? What are we like? Yeah, what's the whole what's the purpose? What's the purpose? What are we here for? Yeah. What are we here for?

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Well, listen, you know, this is the year of the fire horse. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I said, yeah, it's transformation. This is the year to figure that out. I mean, I do, I, I, I, I do feel somewhat transformed.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Do you? I do. I just turned 50 in September. And there is definitely like a, oh, yeah, I'm here. I mean, it's really nice to be here. It is. It's like, you know, all those questions of like, what am I going to do with them? Like, how am I like I kind of answered them. Right. And so now I'm just like, now I I really feel it's this, I really like when I turned 50, it was this thing of like, okay, what do you really want to do now? Because this is it, honey. Right, you get to choose. Yeah. Well, because and also this is it.

SPEAKER_00 48:44

Like, you know, yeah. This is the second half at best. Yeah, you're seeing the compress I call it the compression of time. Whereas before it was a big expansive field.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Yeah. Right? Yeah, so it's an exciting place because I was just talking about it with a client. Like for so long, it was just like survival. And now my kids are little, I gotta do this, I gotta get there. And we were both talking about it, like we get to pick out of a place of joy, actually. Of just like, what is it that really what we really want to do? And that's exciting. And I also, it's nice to feel like you earned it too. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I did that. I did that. Now, what do I really want to do? It's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

What do you really want to do?

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Uh I don't expect you really too.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Oh no, I have answers. Please. You have answers.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

Oh, yeah. I I would like to. There's a book in my that I would like to somehow write at some point. There's a book in you?

SPEAKER_00 49:30

Uh, yeah. Yeah. I I've had a uh a book, is it uh fiction, nonfiction, oh it's uh experiential, it's uh memory. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

Well, I mean, I've had a very uh not a traditional life. Let's put it that way. And um, there's also that intersection of my life with Kathy, which I think is also fascinating. And and I actually, um, one of the things that Kathy's husband gave me, so do you know that every day before she taught class, she would write notes of what she was gonna do? No, really. Oh, this is the this is our NYU routine. I would get there at 7:30, say, and we would go over what the class is gonna be. She would handwrite it in stenopath. And she would she and she would follow it? Hell no. No, but I mean, she so okay. She would, that was the plan, and we would go downstairs, and inevitably it would like make a little turn. Yeah. And um, then she'd go, then after class, we'd go upstairs and then she'd check it off with me. And be like, I'd be like, no, you did this, and she'd be like, oh, that's right. And then she would go home and type that thing out. Oh my. Type it out. Oh my. I think I have 10 years of those type notes. Really? Yeah. And like, you know, interesting reflections, like there were only two men in class today. Like she was always sort of like, where are the men? So, like, one was where are the people of color? And then where are the men? Oh, interesting. Why aren't they coming to class? Uh-huh. Right. Even in like when but so like, and I just loved her musings, like, oh, that didn't work today.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

Like, yeah. And she typed those out, even the musings. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

Oh, after September 11th, she's like, I think we needed to stay fetal, so we're gonna just like keep it fetal for a while. Like, just like go into like oh yeah protection. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so so there's there's there's a somewhere in there, there's so that's one of the things I'd like to do. Um I would like to transition, I would like to maybe do my own sort of graduate training. That's another thing I'd really like to do. I feel like I've, you know, people have asked me for years, like, are you doing a training? And I said, when I feel like I have something to say, and I feel like I'm ready. I got something to say. Good on you. So there's that. So yeah, there's uh there's a few things, you know. I want to see my children launch. Launch. Yeah, I got so I've got rapid fire launching. I got I got one this year and one next year.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Oh, yeah, yeah, rapid fire. And and then I mean, imagine my life without a school schedule.

SPEAKER_00 51:49

Yes, please. Those school schedules, they do, they keep you on a like a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Yeah, come August, I will be at a soccer field at 6 a.m. for months. Yes. Driving, driving, driving six days a week.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

Good for you. So this is a really exciting time. Oh, it's great. Yeah. Lots of opportunity already. What has Pilates brought into your life? What was most surprising?

SPEAKER_01 52:17

Um I did not think it was going to be my profession. I did not think I did uh so um so many things. Um my sense of purpose, right? Like it's really a passion of mine. Uh so I I did not think I was going that that's what I was getting when I went to floor bar class. I still can't believe you had a floor bar class. It was called the she inherited the class. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

I know it was a university and it's on the schedule. It was floor bar, and she's like, Yeah, by the way, no.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Only like eight years later, she goes, You know, Watsum, we should really call this Pilates. You're right, Kathy. Like, no, years and years and years. She was like, you know what we should call it? Pilates.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

I was like, you're right, Kathy. Did she struggle with um, did she or or you know, anybody that you work with struggle with sort of that that New York City rise of classical Pilates and being in the same space, but but but being on the like in a different place with the work?

SPEAKER_01 53:19

No, because but she did that on purpose. I think because she was in that small room, did she want something bigger? No. Did she want to be more famous? No. No, no, because I think she knew who she was. She knew that she liked to work a certain way, and she got to control it the way she wanted to in that little room. I love that. Right? So when people would call and go, hi, I'd like a session with Kathy Grant, she'd sometimes answer, go, I'm sorry, she's not here right now.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Right, that's my that's my life goal. I think Al Harrison has a funny story of being in Nora's studio at turn point. Yeah, and Kathy called.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

I was sort of like, I think I went to the bathroom and then I was like, I came back up, I was like, what are you doing? She's like, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah. And she's just like, hi, I'd like to register. Yes, we're gonna register.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

Nora has this story. Um, I was on the New York end. You were on the New York end, and Al gets his phone call, and he's taking down a name and he's writing Kathy Grant, and Nora's ears perked up, and she was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

And by the way, she was legit registering. She was ready to pay her money and come. And because she taught me that too. She taught me like go to the things and just take classes. And she was never above doing that. So, like when we would go to conferences, she's like, Okay, who are we gonna go see? What are we gonna do? I love it. I love it. And yeah, it was pretty funny.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

It was Yeah, I would hate to have been the person who sees Kathy Grant walk into your class.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

I wish I could, yeah, later when the when this is off we'll name it.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

We'll talk about that. Yeah, you know, just it was just very funny. It was she wasn't very she wasn't rude at all, but it was just funny. But yeah, but it was great. She really was curious though. And but from the most like she was she just wanted to see what people were doing. You know what I mean? So she wasn't judgy like that. She was really just like, oh, yeah. I would still be like, oh my God. I know.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

I mean, it just Yeah, of course, because there she is, and there she is, there she is, yeah. Um okay, so some rapid fire questions. Okay, ready. Ready? Okay. Do I need to do anything? Crack my knuckles. You have to perform the exercise. Yeah, I'm kidding. Uh on the table. Yes. Uh, what is your favorite Pilates exercise and why? And you really don't have to perform it. Honestly, footwork. Footwork.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Endlessly fascinating to me. Just like out in. But like so much is in there. So much is out there. Right. That's why it's just like that's the footwork. Like basic. Push off the thing, let the thing bend. You're like footwork.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

And what about this? And what about this? I'm like, footwork. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:51

Yeah. Let's just start there. Yeah. I actually recently did footwork with Deborah Lesson, and I go, wow, that's really hard work. She goes, it is called footwork. I was like, oh yeah, footwork. So yeah, footwork.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

That's usually my standard answer.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

It's footwork.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Footwork. Yeah. All right. What's your least favorite? My least favorite. I do love the face you just made. Well, uh She crunk crumpled up her face every time.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Because there's no really one lease. Hold on, let me think about. No, I like that one too. I'm just trying to think. No, I like that one too. It's almost like um, it's like you try to find something that you like for in all of them.

SPEAKER_00 56:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 56:27

So I don't know if uh do I have one that I oh um uh squirrel. Squirrel. Yeah, just because I I I I'm not a squirrel anymore.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

Actually, really well named. It is really well named. Yeah, when you watch a squirrel scramble, you're like, yeah, there it goes.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

Yeah, maybe squirrel. Yeah. All right, what's what's your definition of Pilates? Ooh, um movements created by Mr. Pilates, done with um a mind-body connection and breath, hopefully some spring sometime, but you don't need it. You got the mat.

SPEAKER_00 56:58

Yeah, that's it. Um, and where as if you had a crystal ball, uh, where do you see Pilates going in the future? I'm hoping we circle back.

SPEAKER_01 57:08

I'm hoping that we're sort of doing this long loop and that I feel because I feel like we're sort of I feel like there's a bubble that we're on right now. And I'm hoping that we circle back to where we were before, but I think that about other things. Meaning like group semi-privates. I'd love to see that back in the world. Semi-privates? Yeah, yeah, where the like where you actually come into a space and you work out and there's a teacher sort of circulating. Oh, like I'm talking old school. Joe's gym, old school, yes. Actually, Alan Herdman still does it like that. Like he has people come in, they do their workout, and there's I mean, you can sign up for different workouts, and he has this one person who will check in on the maybe three different clients, which I love. Right, lovely. I'd like more, a little more onus put on the student, uh is what I'd like to see. Yes. That's my crystal ball. Well, that's what I'd like to see.

SPEAKER_00 57:55

Um, in terms of the Pilates community, what what would you hope for our larger community? Um, I'm just sick of the hate.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

I'm sick of the divisiveness and like uh I'm sort of also sort of sick of like the the um the clickbait, I think it's called. Like, look at that, like just just can you just do the work again? Just can you just get really good at the work? And I guess yeah, but I'm also old-fashioned. Like just I I you know, I'm kind of I'm all I'm over the influencers. You're 50. Yeah, yeah. So let's just do the work. Yeah, like like that's how I became a good teacher. I just kept teaching.

SPEAKER_00 58:32

Yeah, that's yeah, the the proof is in the pudding. Go make pudding. All right, so so this is not in the rapid fire questions, but I do have one more question for you. So coming back to the work, coming back to the work, right? Circling back or or like what is if if you could say, what is the one value add of the original work of the Pilates that should not be lost?

SPEAKER_01 58:56

I think so. Back in the day, you were supposed to know your exercises and go through them, right? One by one. And I think that like the sort of self-driving self-reflection that you are supposed to have when you do the workout, that's what I think I needs to be more of. And like, because I feel like we come in and we sort of think go to the teacher, be like, okay, you teach me this.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

You tell me what to do.

SPEAKER_01 59:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

And that's only part of it.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

Right. And that's I think something Kathy definitely taught me. Like, yeah, I can only help you so much. Like, you she like because sometimes she'd get want some feedback. And so that's what I think. Was that your question? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

Yeah, I think that's great. I I I'm, you know, I'm I'm endlessly curious about as as we do continue to evolve, how we keep the Pilates, yeah, right? Not just the name, no, but because they're doing something on the equipment, but the Pilates, and how do we share its unique value?

SPEAKER_01 59:52

I also think that fancy isn't always meaning fancy moves isn't where it's like the hard stuff is actually like the head lift, uh-huh. Right? Like bringing your knees into your chest, the heart of the work. The simple things are is actually and doing it well. Yeah. Right. Because I mean, I can do all kinds of twirly things, but doing a really good headlift and taking myself right into a hundred, that's beautiful. Yeah. But it's not, it's not always the most sexy. Yeah. Or Instagram, like, look at this thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

It's like changing the hot water heater. Oh, yeah. Gotta get done. Gotta get done. Glossing. Makes all the difference in the world. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:29

But no one really ever notices. Correct. Yeah.

unknown 1:00:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:33

Were those all my rapid fire questions?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

Did I complete the task? You did it, and you got an A plus. Oh, I always knew I could get an A. Blossom, this was so lovely. Thank you so much. Thank you. Well, this is it. We're done. We are done. It's a wrap.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

Oh, great. Now I can go have that cigarette I never smoked.