Teaching Autonomy With Pilates

How do we teach Pilates in a way that empowers rather than corrects? Joy and Cara Reeser, Master Teacher and second-generation Pilates educator, explore a more nuanced, relational approach to Pilates teaching. Drawing inspiration from Kathy Stanford Grant’s gentle dissuasion of performance, Cara reflects on the value of helping clients move how they actually move, not how they think they’re supposed to move.

Together, they unpack how mindfulness in Pilates requires attention, intention, and attitude. They discuss the importance of nurturing both the teacher-client relationship and the client’s relationship with themselves, offering a model of teaching rooted in self-exploration, curiosity, and embodied learning.

If you’re a Pilates teacher interested in mindful movement, client-centered cueing, and more empowering ways to teach, this conversation offers a thoughtful perspective and practical insight.

This episode is powered by Balanced Body®.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hi, I'm Joy, and thank you for tuning into Pilates Perspectives. Today we have Kara Reeser who is going to remind us of the beauty of going back to the basics through exercise stacking. Before we get started, let's do our check-in. So for today's check-in, let's just create an environment around us where we can heighten the awareness of where we are in this moment. So you could be driving, you could be cooking, you could be at the playground with the kids, you could be home quietly, sitting on a chair, listening to this podcast, whatever it is you're doing, just take a moment, take a deep breath, and as you exhale, just state an intention for yourself. And do that again. Inhale. And exhale. What's your intention for this day? And then this next one, inhale, exhale your intention, and then slowly bring yourself into the space you're currently inhabiting. Can you feel the seat underneath you, or the ground under your feet, or the wind as it brushes your skin as you're walking? Does it brighten the light? Does it give you a little sense of the purpose in that space? And now take your intention. And what will you do with that intention today? All right. Thanks for taking the moment. Our guest today is Kara Reeser. She is a master teacher and second generation Pilates educator. She co-founded Movement Science Made Simple and is a master class on incorporating the latest findings into her practice while maintaining a high level of integrity and respect for the work of the Pilates elders, including Kathy Stanford Grant, her own mentor and friend. You can find her at Cara ReeserPilates.com or at the description below. Hi, Kara. All right, welcome to Pilates Perspectives. I'm here with Kara Reeser coming to you from a podcast booth somewhere in Brooklyn. Kara, where are we? We are in Guanes, Brooklyn, by the Guanes Canal. Fantastic. For those of you out there who are listening, I always like to paint a picture of uh where we're coming to you from. It is a bit of a rainy day after some big heavy snows in New York. Uh, but Kara is sitting here nice and tan. Where did you come from? Where are you joining us coming back?

SPEAKER_00 3:07

I just came back from a three-week trip in Costa Rica. I taught a workshop in Nasara, Costa Rica, with a bunch of um American Pilates teachers, but also some local, some tikas. And um, and then I went out to um the farthest southern tip on the Pacific side to uh yoga retreat with my yoga pals. And I hung out in the jungle for seven days and practiced yoga and lived very simply by the ocean in the jungle with the animals was amazing. And New York seems horrible to me right now, but I will adjust. You will need to.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

It's just a different jungle.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

I don't like it right now, but I'm glad to see you and I'm glad to be here in this podcast, and I'm happy to uh get started and talk with you, Joy.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Fantastic. Um, so well, let's get right to it. So you and I often um we take a walk, and I and again, for those of you out there who are listening, we tend to walk through the cemetery, we find a bench, uh, we look over at the Statue of Liberty and we talk an awful lot about Pilates and um things that we're currently seeing, things that were, things that are. And in a lot of our conversations, we we sort of think about the changing landscape and what uh as teachers, uh, and I'll use your word, are the threads we'd like to pull through. Um, or we'd love to see pull through. It's right, it's not about really what we'd like to see, it's it's about some of the movement traditions uh and ideas and ways of being that really could benefit across all different styles of teaching.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, I think that's great. Like, so um yeah, I think you and I, uh when we're in the Greenwood Cemetery, which is what she's referring to here in Brooklyn, um we're I I think we've been really um trying to pinpoint together, like what what feels uh what feels important, like as Pilates changes, right? It can be big group fitness, it can be all sorts of things, but like what are the things that like we really hope do don't get lost? Like how do you keep tradition and legacy and heritage and also have like new forms, right? And like what what do we what do we hope um we can keep inside of the work? Um and I think you know, there is the equipment, there is the vocabulary, um, and there people have different feelings about uh how important it is that the vocabulary be a certain way or the equipment be a certain way. Um and I think you and I both feel like yeah, we need to be keeping that tradition um also. But there is something else, right? There's something about like what is it that we hope we uh give to the client that that will deepen, change, that's right, impact their lives. That's that's right, that's what we're really doing here.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

And uh where are the spaces that that the client actually comes in and there the where the impact is?

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And one of the beauties, now I've been teaching Pilates straight up over 32 years. And I mean teaching Pilates, I mean teaching 20, 30 hours a week, owning studios, teaching education, but teaching the late client, right? And you know, what is that I I often ask myself, like, how can I possibly still be interested in this work and be teaching this many hours a week still, you know? Um, because and the answer is that because that that thing that really moves somebody, you're you're constantly crafting it. It's different for everybody. And we're we're constantly in relationship, right? Whether you're teaching a big class or you're teaching an individual or you're working more rehab or you're working more, you know, it's it's about sort of this relationship you're building and um well, relationship to the client and relationship to the movement, relationship to the equipment, relationship to the client, yeah, relationship, the client's relationship to themselves, to themselves, important things to um to the and through that with the equipment, through that with the vocabulary, right? But but most importantly, it's that that connection that you're facilitating, right, for that individual or those individuals to um really connect into their moving body and build capacity. Um they can make choices, they become more adaptable, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

So you're you're talking about awareness, right? You're talking about connection to self, you're talking about awareness, yep, intentionality of movement. So these these things are not an exercise name. No, they're not an exercise name. They're not. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

And the exercise won't necessarily give you that, right? There's that's right. Right. The exercise, you know, Kathy Grant used to say something very adorable when she was teaching us, and and this is later on, once you sort of understood we knew what Pilates was, right? At first, none of us knew what Plotties was because it wasn't really like a thing yet. Um, but like we might like do the teaser and get sort of like self-conscious and sort of kind of start posing. And she would always say, Oh, excuse me, I'm not gonna take a picture of you. You know, just to say, like, don't, let's not perform. Like, let's not perform. Let's be, let's be in the experience of the work instead of come, you know, performing. You understand what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yes, right, right, right. Right. So it's not that end product. Right. Right. It's all the, it's all the it's all the pieces getting there. It's all the learning that happens on the way.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Yeah, and it's the engagement that you're staying, you're staying in your body and in the the process of of what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

So talk to me a little bit more about engagement. Um uh when when you know when you say the engagement of the process, the uh you're not just talking about engaging your abdominals. You're not talking about engaging your ABCD muscle.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

No, I'm talking about the the body-mind connection. When I'm using the word engagement, it's the ability to um help somebody really tune in inside themselves to sort out sort of how to do this task.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Okay, so that's a thread. That's a huge thread. Yeah, absolutely. Maintaining that engagement. Yeah, maintaining the body-mind. Uh, full disclosure, I love body-mind. Um, I I I have to think it's it's a reversal of how we often talk about this. Ah, okay. Right. We talk about this as mind body.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

But I think body-mind, right? We're through movement, we're we're engaging with the mind.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah. Or you could just think, I mean, there's there's a I I think it's Suzuki Roshi. I'm gonna make some Buddhist kind of uh crossovers here. He would say uh, you know, the body mind, not one, not two, meaning like it's always both. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

So, but the body mind to me is the way that your body is well, not one, not two, and it's always both, but you always have to use one word in front of the other.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Right, which sort of yeah, but our language, this is when you realize how how how language just really doesn't cut it, right? Especially when you're talking about movement. Because it the movement teaches so much.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Does that make sense? It does make sense. I just I just was having this little flash where I was thinking about like sort of the the things I sort of think sometimes when I'm thinking about like what it means to be in mindful awareness of your of yourself in those ways, right? And I think sometimes um of the idea of this internal shower that you know Mr. Pilates spoke of, right? The internal shower. And I always am like, what is the internal shower? To me, the internal shower for for everyone is that moment where they are so completely in body-mind. They are completely their attention is completely anchored in the singular tasks at hand that nothing else is in, none of that static of of monkey mind or the the world outside, it really narrows. And the and the the that experience of being so present in your body with yourself is I think that internal shower. And I I I don't know what the guy thought. I don't really think that much about what he meant, but I know that experience quite well as a as a as a mover my entire life. And I certainly see it. And I know everybody else who's listening here who teaches Pilates sees it too. You see it, yep. When that person is like, yep, you know, they slip in and they come to tears. Yes, yes, and they they they they thank you so much. What are they thanking for? They don't thank you for the teaser. They're not thanking you for the teaser. I mean, I like the teaser, man. I like the teaser, but they're not thank you for that. They're thank you for, man. They're thanking you because they're like, I changed, I feel incredibly different. Right. My stress levels are different, right? My because and I believe that is that those that that ability to bring people into the attention of body mind.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Right. Uh I think it's uh gosh, it's an article I read a long time ago from um uh Shapiro is I think the name of the author. And it's uh mindfulness requires attention, intention, and an attitude, but the attitude was really about a mirroring between teacher and student. Um, but the attention and the intention piece always caught me. And and that's so present in um in in in most Pilates environments. Can you keep those? Can you keep that even in say larger group environments or environments where there's music in the background? Yeah, you can.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Absolutely. Absolutely. But I mean, I think that there are some things as teachers for us to keep in mind in terms of helping people get into that space or that vibe. Vibe is a really popular word right now. I love vibe, came back from the 60s. I I totally take vibe, right? So, like, how do you help people get into that that body-mind vibe, right? It has to do with sort of how you guide them. How you guide them. How do you guide them into the practice? Into the practice, into themselves. Into the practice, into themselves.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

So that might have to do with like how how do you direct their attention? You just used that word. You said intention, attention. I love the word attention. How do you direct somebody's attention, their body-mind attention, right? All right, how do you do that? Well, I think it's it's I think it's interesting. I think you're gonna make some choices, right? I mean, I don't think it's about the goal being like the performance of the exercise necessarily. I think it's about all those little steps that help them find the exercise. Right, right. It's all the the when I'm teaching internationally, I like to use the word baby step because it kind of like everybody understands that, right? But it's the stepping stones that the the underneath stuff that builds the skill builds into the performance of the Pilates exercises. Um and so we have to figure out a frame, a way to to talk about those things, a way to teach them, a way to individualize them depending on the body. This is why the the being a teacher is so interesting, because you got a lot of you got a lot of stuff to sort out, which is why you're still here 30 years later and you're still interested in what you're doing. That's exactly right. Because with every client or every class, it's a new matrix of organizing. It's all new, all new taking, you know. Um, my business partner Jeremy Lavender, he he said something really great in this um article we did recently uh for Pilates Journal. He said, you know, think you could think of yourself uh when you're a Pilates teacher as a as a tour guide.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

As a tour guide. Yeah, yeah. I love I loved that.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Or like or like um or like who's the guy who like takes you on the trail, like uh the trail guide. The Sherpa. Yeah, yeah. The trail guide. And and why is because you you know this landscape well. So you're completely the person to help guide somebody in to their own sort of like think of your body as the the landscape. Oh, fantastic. Right. So you are the guy that takes that person into and you can help guide them. You say, you know, actually, you know, you gotta know enough about the landscape to be like, no, no, no. Go ahead and let your shoulder blade move there, right? Go ahead and yeah, you could point your toes or you could flex your toes, but you know, let's let's feel. It's like, is do you like to walk in the moss or you like to walk, you know?

SPEAKER_01 17:14

So it's almost like you're giving permission, Kara.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

You're giving permission, you're helping people make choices, your um I'm offering. Your offering. I'm not one to be a like a real top-down style teacher. Um, I know that there is room for that in the environment, but I I'm much more interested in like, you know, get out your flashlight, Dora the Explora, get in there and see who you are inside. And I think Pilates really allows for that. There's there's so much to be explored there. Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

So again, right, that that that doesn't come out in in just the expression of an exercise. You mentioned stepping stones. Um, so let me be the let me thank you publicly for all the work that you've done with us on our, you know, our new refreshed movement principles course, where we you know lead through movement and through the exploration of these stepping stones. Um uh how for you, for you personally and your your sort of teaching, voice, and growth, um these stepping stones, how how did they come to have shape for you?

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Well, first of all, I want to say you're welcome. And it was a delight to work on that programming with you. And not everybody might know what that is, but it was like your training programs like steps into teaching plots. So we're talking about creating a vernacular, like right, yeah, a way of being like, I always think about it, I kind of reverse engineer it. I'll say, like, I'll look at, let's say, a swan, right? And I'll say, What's in swan? What happens here, right? This is very the way Kathy Grant created before the hundred, right? She was looking at these, like, you know, small movement that that took a lot of attention, a lot of awareness of what exactly you were doing, and you put those together, right? So that's what we we kind of took that model. That's how I learned Pilates. So, like, I I don't know how it is that Kathy thought that way, but it's baked into how I think. I can't think another way. Right. Right. That's just me. So, you know, I I could use Kathy's work and do it, or I use my work and do it, or but it's also the way a lot of movement traditions work with with thinking, right? It's uh it's it's the learning of the skills from the very basic, yeah. You're learning. The most foundational. Right. And to me, those skills are they're not imagery for imagery's sake. Say more. Right. Meaning I'm gonna use imagery that matches the experience. The no, the, the, the actual like movement skill that I'm trying to do, right? If I'm if I'm talking about um the way, let's say I nod my head. Let's think we're thinking about, you know, right? I I need to know, like, oh yeah, that is my skull rotating on my atlas, right? And then so I need to know how that works because I need to know that in order to do a roll-up, I need to take the parts of my spine with me, and my head is on my spine, right? So I got to understand enough about general mechanics, biomechanics to be like, and then I need to come up with a way for that person to visualize that. That's where the image comes from, right? The image comes, or I'm using the image for um quality, how much tension, you know, I want something more rigorous, or I want something right. But I think for me, when I'm I'm always visualizing how the body actually moves with the awareness that people move differently, and then trying to kind of build, and then looking at those exercises and be like, what what what's required here?

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Right. And then you take those stepping stones, you know, stepping stones lead you in a direction, they take you on a destination. Yeah, exactly. And they are side by side.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Um, and then you also can stack them. Yeah, uh, right. But but in either case, you're taking these skills and you're driving them and moving them toward um uh an expression. Yeah, right. That's right. Yeah. Um, is that when we talk about the threads that that you know, the threads that we hope to see in all the different environments in which Pilates is evolving into, is that some of the threads that you think you'd love to see?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah. So if I'm thinking about like, you know, I could be thinking a couple things here. I could be to be talking to Pilates teachers, which I'm doing right now. And I'd say, as a Pilates teacher, yeah, I want you to be able to feel like you can really think, you know, clearly about the Whatever this larger movement complex thing you're doing is how to break it down enough that you're giving that person an opportunity to really get there in a in a way that's not like really dreadful. Like, you know, let's make it, let's give them a clear path, right? So, yes, for the client, what I think is that the when you give a client these very subtle specific um movement tasks, right? You are doing their you they're really coming in and internalizing their movement and they're also learning about their body. They'll tell you, they'll say, you know, ever since we did that, you know, that wheel of the pelvis thing that I learned from you, you know, I was thinking about it the other day when I was at my yoga class or I was golfing or when I was grocery shopping, I could feel that, right? You're you're so transfers. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

So not only do they stack, they transfer.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Yeah, and I think that so, so as a teacher, you're creating a more streamlined ability to sort of like deliver what you want to deliver. But for the client, they're they're they're learning about them, their moving body. They're not just learning Pilates exercises, they're learning about their moving body and how their personal individual moving body does Pilates.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Sounds to me, um uh, and this is this is something that we talk about a lot. It sounds to me that while uh we're trying to empower teachers um with the language, uh, it's it's also to empower the client and give them permission to learn their own body. And so then the, as you said earlier, sort of like the guide, the teacher becomes that just really the conduit for the client to find it in themselves.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

That's right. So, what did Kathy Grant say all the time? First of all, she said, one size doesn't fit all. That was one of her favorite slogans, right? Uh, she made the slogan later when she started like presenting, but one size doesn't fit all. What that was very true for her. You aren't teaching an exercise, you're teaching a person.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

You're not teaching an exercise.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

I think that's a Kara Reese quote, but it's she would have said that, right? You're teaching a person. So how do you need to construct that for that individual, right? How do you do that in a group environment? Yeah, I think that's that's a great question. Um I think there's some models out there that I'm seeing that I'm I'm excited about. I think that laying down a foundation um for group classes, so people are referring to the same like kind of internal map, or I sometimes will call it like your internal GPS. You know, you've got as the teacher of a group class, drop those that GPS in, yes, those little pins, those little red pins. You know, how about let's do some shoulder blade awareness? Let do you know where your shoulder blades are? Let's do some pelvis. You know, then bring that in. Like, okay, you're doing roll-up. Where are your shoulder blades? What's happening in your pelvis? How do you do that?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Where's your and those those are skills though? I mean, to learn to learn that skill and to teach it in a group environment is is um is is really challenging. But I think we fail to remember that everyone in a group environment will hear your offerings as if it's given to them. Oh, sure, right? So, so, so learning learning how to take the stepping stones and not just lay them side by side, but to also set stack them vertical or on diagonal, right? To know all the different ways in which you can organize to create a destination.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like, you know, Kathy would often say, if you said, like, well, how should I do this? What should I do? You know that client who's always like, is this right? How do I do it? You know, what what we're what we need to be building there is self-efficacy for that person, right? Is to be able to say, like, Kathy would say, I don't know, I'm not you. You know, she'd say, uh, if you get stranded on a deserted island, which you could have. I'm a I have a strand in myself. I like it. Um, she, I'm not gonna be there. What was she saying? She was saying, you have to know yourself. Yeah, you have to, yeah. You have to know yourself, right? And I think the empowered to do it yourself. This thing we just did together, Joy. I think what we were really, you and I, the thread that we cared about, was that we lay down a sort of foundational movement that that would allow people to go on that journey. It's kind of like it um kind of like it's like the gateway drug to awareness of self-awareness for a movement practice or something.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Um can we turn a little bit to Kathy? Sure. Um uh I I mean I you've you've talked about Kathy quite a bit. Um I'd I'd love to uh talk a little bit about the experience, what it was like to learn from her.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

Yeah, um well, it's sort of picture this, right? You've never heard of Pilates, you've never seen Pilates equipment, you don't really want to do Pilates. Um you are You were a dancer, right? Yeah, I was a dancer, but I I I you know this was part of the curriculum, and then working privately with her was was her, you know, she needed me to do that so I could get my shit together and dance in a program where my body wasn't ready after a bad injury. Um so the experience with Kathy for me was done privately at first, and it was very individual. And and if I look back on it now with all that I've learned about pain, neuroscience and biomechanics and movement awareness and all the stuff that I'm fascinated with. Like she she had all that in the back, right? She was like, She saw my fear, she worked with my fear, she saw my resistance, she worked with my resistance, she saw my weaknesses, she worked with my weaknesses. She saw my where my motor learning system was like a stick, you know, like in shock. And she she helped me to build capacity again of places that I had had lost. You know, she had all of that. So it was incredibly deep, um incredibly um like absorbed. I was incredibly absorbed in the work when I was working with her. She would also leave you alone to work on it on your own, right? She would, she would give you stuff and she would walk away and she'd say, you know, you work on that. And it'd be like the smallest little thing. You'd be doing like the smallest, weirdest little thing. And you'd be all, oh, you know, in that zone, or you're like, you know, and then you might start crying or sweating. You're like, what's happening? Right. But you're you're again, she like put you on the on the trail, and you went in and you started to find your way. Um, and you did that with with to to build skills as a mover, but you also did it to to deal with your your pain or your injury. It was a similar thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Pilates Perspectives is powered by Balanced Body. If you teach Pilates, you're like me and many others a lifelong learner. And Balanced Body is committed to supporting your professional growth. Alongside our instructor training, we offer a rich library of manuals, videos, and continuing education courses on everything from anatomy and biomechanics to creative programming and working with special populations. Whether you're refreshing your skills or carving out a niche, we have training to stretch both your body and your mind. Explore our education resources at Pilates.com slash learn. You talked about, you know, uh now uh posts working with Kathy, all the movement science and all the biomechanics and uh and and all the things you have learned over the years, only to cycle back and realize that it was she had it. It was there.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Um, and you know, talk about pulling threads through. Shh, what was that? What do you what do you think that was why did she have that skill? Well, I think what I'm trying to get at is, and and and let me be more explicit. Uh I I one of the many conversations that you and I have had has been around um this idea we need to fix people.

unknown 31:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Now, Kathy, you you could have walked away and said, Kathy fixed me, but she empowered you. She gave you the stepping stones and the tools. Sometimes they were very discreet and small. You were a learned mover, you could you could find those. Not not the lay population can't always find that. But she opened a door for you to yourself. Did she fix you? Or did she, again, sort of lay a path for you to be able to find it yourself?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yeah, it's a it's a great question. And and this fix me thing um is it's it's on my mind a lot, right? Because I think that um, you know, Jeremy and I just recently uh sort of did a conversation article for Pilates Journal that's called me called the Fix Me. And and the reason we did it is we thought, wow, maybe Pilates teachers feel like kind of pressured, like there's all this information out there and everywhere, right? And they feel like this pressure, like they people come in and are like, oh, my shoulder does this and my blah, blah, blah, and I have this. Like they immediately report to you, like they immediately report.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yes, yes. And it's like and they always walk out saying, Oh, I feel better. Right, and better. So you feel responsible for that.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

You don't know, and you're like, oh, I've got to pretend I know whatever. And I'm gonna like I went to a workshop and it was about fascia, so maybe it's their fascia. And I went to, you know, and it's like, so what what really is our job, right? Our job is to know enough to make good choices, to be safe and make good choices. That's where the biomechanics and this the knowing enough about body movement and stuff like that is important, right? Because there are things that are like I could make this choice and it would maybe make this person feel worse, right? So making smart um exercise choices, right? But I think otherwise, the point that you're making is that what we're there to do is take people on the tour guide, help them build confidence, self-awareness, um, giving them attentional anchors so that they can can bring themselves into their body and through movements that they no longer thought they could do to building capacity, right? With that building of capacity, they're becoming more adaptable in the world and all the things that they do, and also in the PLODIS environment, right? They're suddenly, oh my God, I did it. I can't believe I did it, right? Um they they and and if if they're complaining about pain, which a lot of them are doing, what do we know? What does research know? Research knows that movement helps people. That's right. Exercise helps.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Gosh, it wasn't it wasn't so long ago. They would say don't move. Right. They would say just stop.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Yeah, like if they have a X, Y, or Z, you need to make good choices in the exercise environment and pretty much help those people with, you know, that cheerleading them on, taking them on the, you know, guiding them on the path and letting them have some freedom to find their way. Kathy always did that too. And um So it doesn't have to be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

It can't it can't be perfect, right? You know, if you're giving people freedom to find their way, right? It doesn't be perfect.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Motor learning doesn't happen in in in, you know, it's that's not how it works, right? Right?

SPEAKER_01 34:40

You're it's often through the imperfect, and that and when you find your way that the learning happens.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Yeah. I mean, you know, one of the things we're working with Kathy is she'd be like, you know, this is this is her teaser. This is her swan. It's not gonna look like a picture of a teaser or swan. It's gonna be what it is for this woman's spine, the way she shaped, the way this person has their tissue, you know, like whatever. Like it was never so. I think that if we can help ourselves like get out of the way of sort of this, these image of these, these exercises and really go on the the journey. And with the the the pressure I think we all feel about like helping people with their like problems that they report in on, just remembering that movement is gonna help them and giving them a chance to sort things on their own and become more confident and become more resilient is game changing for people. It's game changing for people, and it can happen, it can game change you if you're 70, if you're 80, if you're 90, if you're 30, if you're 30. Yeah. Um, everybody benefits from being in relationship to themselves that way.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

Um so you mentioned Jeremy a couple of times. Yeah. You, you, you and Jeremy work together um and you teach movement science made simple.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yes, we do. We have a big education platform that's uh uh a full curriculum platform, um, something we decided to do a long time ago because we felt like instead of teaching like one-off courses, let's let's teach something where people can really stay in and get the depth. Um, and that that is the curriculum for movement science made simple.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Right. Uh and it's continuing education.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

It's continuing education. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

And and when you piece all of them together, you you have almost like an advanced degree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yes, we call it the um advanced movement studies certificate program, I think. I can't always remember what we call things, but it's yeah, so we have several, several, several graduates and lots of people involved. And I think it, you know, for me, it's really satisfying because I'm like, I've really watched, particularly students who've been with us for a long time. Mostly what I've watched, I'm like, not they're a better Pilates teacher, but they're confident. They're like, I can, I feel like anybody can walk in and I can I can meet the task. And I can also say, I'm not sure what's going on here. Let's play around and see what we feel.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

I, in many ways, I think that's the biggest empowerment is to say, gee, I don't know what's going on here. 100%. And uh and but what do we what do we know? We know that people feel better when they move.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

Right. And let's get have you make it. Let's try some things. Let's, and Kathy always did that. Let's be creative, let's try stuff. I mean, it is so important. I really want to say this to the Pilates teachers listening. Like, it's okay. I just had a conversation at work um with some some newer Pilates teachers who are not to know. And they said, I said, you guys, it's okay. You can tell them you don't know why their back hurts. You don't have to say, Oh, I think it's connected to your bunion, and then maybe because of your head is a little crooked, and like you don't know if that's true. Like you don't have to go there. You can just say, I don't know. So try some things.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Here's the thing that like has been a little static in my brain is okay, so um uh when you teach biomechanics, when you teach there's there's it's it's really hard to not default the learner, whoever that learner is, whether they're already an instructor or they're learning to be an instructor, between the between the teaching having such a focus on that, and the client coming in and saying, Oh, I heard this pile of stuff is good for my, and you could just put in whatever word you want, my back, my shoulder, my hip, my whatever, my golf game, my um uh that there is this default that learning the science is gonna make me better at teaching the movement.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

You need to know enough about general movement, how the body moves to make good choices in, you know, like so so, you know, like a great example of that is is, you know, you could look at somebody who doesn't have a lot of external rotation in their hip and be like, oh, you're so tight, you're so tight, you need to stretch, you need to keep trying to. But but if you understood that not all hips, depending on how the structure is built, are gonna open up as much of a ballerina's hips. So let's not demand that. Let's know enough about how the structures of the body work to just make good choices. That doesn't mean you have to be like a PT or a doctor about it.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

Right, but that's a very unique approach. I mean, I would say that's a fairly unique approach, right? There be it's not, it's not know this information, right? Um uh it it let me say this in a different way. It's it's know this information to be able to see what you see better.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

It's know this information to be able to be a good tour guide into the body for that individual and make choices about range of motion, make choices about which exercises are gonna make the most sense for this person, what modifications? That's a word that people like to use out there. You know, which way are you gonna teach this exercise? You know, um, so uh it's it's a it's it's not about it's not about knowing this stuff so you can correct people. It's not about knowing the stuff so you can fix people, it's about knowing this stuff so you can make choices and guide people. That's I think the difference.

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Um does that make is that uh that's exact that's that's exactly right. And I think it's liberating. I shouldn't say right, because there's no right or wrong, but that's that, you know, in terms of this conversation, in terms of what we've been sharing, where I was thinking, right? It's not knowing enough to say this is right or wrong. It's really about opening up the space for that individual.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Look, you and I, as leaders in the industry or influential figures in the industry or whatever we want to call it, right? We are interested in Pilates teachers being successful and grounded and rooted in themselves and feeling like they have all the tools they need, and they don't have to be in any kind of imposter syndrome, and that they can like have a healthy career forever. Right. These are the things that you and I have been talking about.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

To build trust, you have to feel confident and competent. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

That's right. And and we all know when we're faking it to make it. And what I'm saying is that we we can make it much simpler um than we're making it, you know. Um, we are really good at a lot of things as Pilates teachers. And let's keep being really good at those. Let's keep being good at making really good choices and helping people do thread these threads together that you and I are talking about. And I think that's what we want to see there.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Yeah, sometimes I think that, you know, I just use the word trust, you know, um, and that's part of relationship, right? Your client trusts you, um, but in turn, you need to uh trust the information that you have and the tools that you have, including the most foundational and basic of skills, because it's those basic skills that lead you to wherever your client's teaser is going to be that day, wherever their their swan is going to be.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

Yeah, well, like look, the you could think of the basic skills like this. Like it's like the, I mean, this is like so silly what I'm gonna say, but it's like the it's like the alphabet, right? You're giving people the the the letters, you're giving people the alphabet so that they can make their movement sentences.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Oh, I like that, right? Right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

So they can make their movement words, and they make their movement words, and then they make movement sentences and then movement phrases. The Pilates level one, yeah, reformer is like a movement mini book, you know, like you gotta have, you know, those those stepping stones, um, you know, those spaces. Um and and and and cat Kathy said similar types of things now that I think of it, I'm thinking of one, uh, you know, um, and and each of you can, each of you, Pilates teachers listening, can can craft your your your uh language your own way, right? That's why it's uh still a creative endeavor.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Um I'm gonna ask you to make some conjecture that that uh so Kathy had her language, um, but her language, all albeit different, is similar to Eve's language, right? Which Corolla had a language, you know. So um um, you know, in the classical tradition, uh Jay Grimes and Romana had their language, Ron had his language, uh uh the The idea that that the first generation teachers in teaching the lay population distilled down to a series of skills to build up to the more performative exercises. Um those langu that that the what am I trying to say here is is uh to me that's the commonality that draws all the different traditions toward this moment and also leads us into the evolution. Is that a statement you'd agree with?

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Well, I think I'm gonna say I don't know enough really about anybody but Kathy. I I can only really speak to I I'm only comfortable speaking to what I really experienced. I've heard things about Eve or Corolla or I mean I knew Ron. Um so I I'm not sure, but I will say that Kathy, I mean, it's interesting. Um, if you look at the documentary I made on Kathy, which um has a lot of just all footage of her, there's a moment where she's saying, Look, you know, Joe had his way and Ramana had her way, and I have my way, you know, but we're all we're all doing the same thing. Um, you know, Joe's way was Joe's way, my way was my way. You could, you could, you can try all those different ways. They're all great ways to try, right? Um there was never a sense from her that it was her way or the highway. And I don't think that that any of us need to um like stick that flag in on the top of the mountain.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Yeah, I love that. And um part of what I love about what you said is the first thing is an admission that that you don't know. We don't you don't we don't know enough about so so many others. Um but uh I recall that quote from Kathy, uh you know, where she's like, yeah, yeah. And and and she's pointing to that everyone is really trying to point in a particular direction, right? Um they may have different language on the on the path there or provide a different path.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Yeah, I mean, and Joy, I look, we're at a place right now, we're at a crossroads right now, where there are gonna be, and this is true, I'm running into these teachers, a lot of Pilates teachers out there who aren't even gonna know anything about these people. Um, so what you know, what we want to make sure is that the what they brought to it stays connected in the work. Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

So to me, that's exactly um a lot of the work that we've been doing. That's what it's been focusing on.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Yeah, and I think it's really, I think time is the essence right now, as Pilates is exploding worldwide, that we are um crafting sort of a way for people to stay um, you know, body-mind engaged in the work.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Now, let's let's talk a little bit about uh you know, the body-mind engaged in the work. Uh uh Pilates also uh Pilates himself was influenced by his many works. It's been influenced by the so many teachers that have come from other disciplines. You're actually um you are a dancer, yes. Uh choreographer, yes, yoga, yeah. You just came from a yoga retreat. Um meditation is very much a part of your life.

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Um I go to I do strength training. And you do strength training and I studied Irene Dowled forever and still do. And I've taken m I take movement classes I from all over all lots of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

And and and you are actively teaching clients? I say this all the time that that you know you you must stay.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

I just came from teaching all the time.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

Right, right. Um, and when you draw all that together, um uh it's a very multidisciplinary approach that you have to movement and movement education. Uh, does that ever get like confounding for a Pilates instructor? Like, where's the Pilates? Where's the or or or or again, are you do you pull all the threads through?

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Uh I I mean, I can teach some badass classical Pilates, no problem. So, like if somebody wants to take me to the map for that, I mean, I think that I don't know how people see what I'm doing. I mean, I think that um maybe I'll let me ask it differently.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Okay. Uh, in in a world where Pilates actually doesn't have a clear standardized definition, right? Right now, Pilates can mean anything on anybody over anybody's doorway, right? Anywhere in the world.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

And that's the fear, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:05

So how do you differentiate Pilates? What is what what what what is the essence that comes out or needs to come out? That's a big question. I don't I don't have an answer.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

I'm gonna answer it on this podcast today, but I think that I I you know, like I do think that the vocabulary that we know to be passed along should be preserved um and not completely forgotten. Um, I do I think it's the only thing you uh are going to teach in the Plagy Studio? No. Um, but I think there's a there's an important place for it. Um I do think that um the awareness aspect, the place of of really helping people be in their body-mind is is something that I hope stays in the work. Um so body-mind staying in the work. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Connection to self. I think building capacity, self-efficacy. Um certainly people are gonna get stronger, at least keep their strength. They're probably gonna keep or or gain some flexibility. Um, but I think people are really developing in the Pilates work, in the work with themselves and Pilates is, you know, a way of um being more um kind of alert and and part of um, you know, uh responsive to the world. You know, um, one of my favorite quotes are stories that Kathy would tell about Mr. Pilates, and she she didn't tell that many stories about Mr. Pilates, but she would say that Mr. Pilates said his work was for the unexpected. Now I love that. What does that mean? It means that you do this thing. We're whoever we are, whichever way we're teaching this work, you do this thing in a big group performer class or you do it privately with me, or you do it privately with you. And you are gonna get out there in the world, and whatever the environment in the world is gonna throw at you, you're gonna be a better be resilient at responding.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

You mentioned resilience earlier.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

You're gonna be better at responding. You're gonna, you're gonna not trip over that rock. You're gonna like so you're more uh you're you've got more lights on inside, right? And I think this is really what we could we are all gonna be able to get give um have that outcome. Um if we if we don't get too outside of the work and we don't make it about like you know performance, but we make it about being in the experience.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

That's what I think. And that's what I want for people.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

That's what that's that's that's the that's what I wish. Right.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

Yeah, that is because I know how important that is for me. Um you teach a lot.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Uh and uh it's your livelihood.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

It is my livelihood.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Uh it is becoming a livelihood for more and more instructors.

unknown 52:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

Can you say a bit about the relationship instructors have with Pilates and how can you recommend nurturing that relationship when Pilates becomes your livelihood?

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Ah, I see where you're going. Right. So it's easy not to practice Pilates when you're teaching it all day long. It's kind of like working at an Italian restaurant and never wanting to eat Italian food again, right? You're just like, eh. Um I honestly wish I had that experience. Talking to the Italian. Um, yeah, I I get what you're saying. Um, you know, you have to find your way of practicing. You know, to be to be honest with you, I don't like take a lot of Pilates lessons or take Pilates classes. I take yoga lessons and classes. That's that's what I study because it takes me out of my, but I'm using all of my, it doesn't matter, right? I'm bringing all of the stuff I know from the Pilates environment into what I'm doing. I'm taking all the stuff that I'm doing in the yoga environment into, right? Because it's still my body, right? But you have to be practicing. You have to be practicing. I mean, I do Pilates, I teach classes and I do the work all the time. But I think that taking time out for yourself, getting on your mat and practicing or getting on your equipment and practicing and exploring. Practicing and exploring. Exploring, not just practicing to be good at the moves, right? It's about getting on and and exploring and staying in uh, you know, finding your own personal movement practice. Kathy Grant did her boom practice every morning. Every morning. Yeah, she would say that. Yeah. Every morning. That's right. Um, so I think it's important. And um, especially if you're you're educating and teaching, you know, you you gotta be referring to them. You got you got you gotta, if you're teaching, you gotta be referring through your body.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

Yeah, you know, so if you're not in your own box, you're you're encouraging their experience, but so much of that is coming from you.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

Yeah, every time, I mean, it's I say this all the time, like, you know, in order to share something that I understand about movement, I've got to be so turned on in my own body that I can't wait for my client to feel this thing I felt.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Love that. All right, we're we're gonna head off into rapid-fire questions, but I do have one more, one more thing to ask you. Um, as Pilates continues to grow globally, we see a lot of generalization with studios aiming to appeal to the largest possible audience. You've described owning a specialization as an avenue for growth. Can you speak to the fears of an instruct an instructor might have about specializing or how to address them in continuing education? Somebody did do their research, by the way, and she's actually very good at it.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Yeah. Um I think how I, you know, first of all, I may have said that and I might not agree with it anymore. So that's interesting. Um, but I I could say this if I'm talking to a newer Pilates instructor and you feel like you're in the swirl and and you're not really sure what I mean, what here's my fear is like I feel like now everybody's trying to specialize and brand around specialization. So this language is hooking me up. Like, because what I That's actually why I wanted to ask this question because I was curious if that's I yeah, what I see out there is like people are like, hi, I'm you know, everybody's got a new everybody's got a new plan. Like I'm yeah, Pilates for you know, for somebody who stands, Pilates for somebody who's on their heads, Pilates is you know, it's like I I don't feel like I don't feel like that. I feel I don't feel like specialization if that's what that means, or well, I don't know what I was saying when I said that. Um you know, I mean people have been quoting me for you know 32 years, so who knows? I said something I don't agree with, but you're entitled to change your mind. I do think that one if you're feeling really lost and you're not sure you don't feel like you have an anchor in educ like in education, right? Like find find something that really it sounds like you're saying be curious, yes, find and and then stay, just stay. Like don't you don't have to run around and get 32 flavors from here everywhere from here and from here. Just just like yeah, listen to what turns you on and and stay a little while, right?

SPEAKER_01 56:43

And stay, be curious, ask ask questions, yeah, right. Okay, all right, rapid fire questions. Okay, your favorite Pilates exercise and why?

SPEAKER_00 56:53

My favorite Pilates. Do you have a favorite exercise? I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

I I don't okay. That's an that's as good an answer as any. What okay, then what least favorite? Least favorite are you agnostic? Pilates exercise.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

Um I don't think the jack knife works for my flat thoracic spine, so I avoid it.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Okay. Uh what's your definition of Pilates?

SPEAKER_00 57:20

No comment. Who wrote these questions? That girl on the cell phone.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

I love no comments. That's perfect. Okay. All right, where do you see Pilates going in the future?

SPEAKER_00 57:35

And what do you hope for the Pilates community? Um well, right now I see Pilates exploding and becoming group fitness, which I hope will um make people more embodied and more aware of themselves and others, um, make them more um compassionate and um make them more um connected. Compassionate and connected each other. Yeah. Uh I have no magic uh crystal ball, so I have no idea where it's going, but I certainly hope it stays popular until I've reached my retirement goals.

SPEAKER_01 58:19

Well, sir, I I hope I know you uh for as long as your 401k is thriving.

SPEAKER_00 58:26

And you as well, Joy.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

It has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us on Pilates Perspectives. You are the best.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

You're welcome. My pleasure. Thank you.